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*One thing feels different about the current protests we are seeing following the recent deaths of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and Ahmaud Arbery: the composition of the crowds.In some parts of the country, white Americans are showing up. They are protesting, taking the knee, and flooding social media. There seems to be a renewed call for white accountability. But is posting and protesting enough? And will this energy last?

Trymaine Lee talks to Tim Wise, an anti-racist essayist, author and educator, about what white people can do to dismantle the systems of inequality in this country.

Hosted byPulitzer Prize and Emmy Award-winning journalistTrymaine Lee, Into America is an NBC News original podcast that elevates the voices of citizens and captures the impact of the pressing issues of our time.See below for select excerpts of the conversation and listennow wherever you get your podcasts.

SELECT EXCERPTS FROM THE PODCAST

SYSTEMIC RACISM

TRYMAINE LEE: What should white people do to dismantle a racist system erected for them? The thing thats creating so much of the stress and the anxiety that white folks, ironically, have about even sitting down and talking to black and brown folks about racism is racism.

TIM WISE: I think theyre white folks who actually would like to have those kinds of cross-racial, cross-cultural, cross-ethnic connections with people. But they dont and they dont understand why. And its not because theyre bad people and its not because the people they want to be friends with dont want to be friends with them. Its that we have a society that is divided as to such an extent that its incredibly hard. If I have a fundamentally different set of realities than you, how am I supposed to be able to sit down and talk with you about anything meaningful? And if I cant do that. How can I really have connection and friendship? Theres a deep irony, but its also sort of heartbreaking.

WHITE PRIVILEGE

TRYMAINE LEE: But can you explain for folks who dont understand how white privilege works and what it actually is? And white privilege sounds soft, but it still leads to the oppression of black folks, right? I mean, is there a real difference in the way it operates from white supremacy and white privilege? Is there any difference with one simply a soft sounding extension of the other?

TIM WISE: Yeah, I think that white privilege is really a symptom of white supremacy. Right. In other words, if you have a system of domination and subordination that makes one group, whatever, that group is supreme in terms of power and access and opportunity, then by definition that group is going to experience certain relative advantages and privileges over all other groups. But its important that we think of it almost like, you know, a taxonomy and a hierarchy where white supremacy is the overarching concept. And within that umbrella of white supremacy, you have a sense of like white privilege. Right. You have a symptom like discrimination, like discrimination is also a symptom of white supremacy. Its not the problem in and of itself, but its a symptom.

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WHITE ACCOUNTABILITY

TRYMAINE LEE: Ive been hearing this term white accountability more and more over the last several days. This idea of white people looking at each other, look at themselves in the mirror and holding themselves accountable for the state of things. What is white accountably look like? Join the protests. What is it?

TIM WISE: Accountability means taking your cue from the community that has the most to lose. Accountability means following the lead of people of color. And what people of color need from us right now is for us to do nothing in these protests thats going to hurt them. Thats going to blow back on them. So thats number one. The second thing for accountability is we have to operate outside the realm of the individual act. Theres gonna come a point when were going to need to get back in community and meeting with people and really talking with people and sharing ideas in a collective sense, because the thing about activism and fighting injustice, it can be very, very isolating and it can be very exhausting. And God knows for people who have that privilege, any level of discomfort. Right, folks, Ill throw in the towel. Black folks dont have the luxury of getting time and they do get tired. Right. People of color get tired, but you cant throw in the towel because your life is at stake. But white folks, man, if were doing this and we feel isolated and it gets too hard, I know what were going to do.

TRYMAINE LEE: When folks see white privilege in action or ignorance in action, or racism in action, should white people confront other white people about whats happening? Should they have to be intentional about confronting racism wherever it lies?

TIM WISE: Oh, I certainly think we should confront racism when we see it. But I think the problem is that a lot of times the racism that is confronting all in that terminology is only the most obvious and blatant. Now, certainly we ought to do it. I mean, its very important that if you have friends or colleagues or family that are making racist comments, telling racist jokes, engaged in obviously discriminatory behavior, you should try to interrupt that. You should practice in your own head ahead of time how you might do it. But I think the bigger problem is so much of the racism that exists and stuff that really perpetuates inequality in this country, is the kind of stuff that is oftentimes much more subtle and institutional.

THE TALK

TRYMAINE LEE: There are a lot of people, journalists included, who ask and have been asking black folks about the talk they have with the children, you know, capital letters, the talk about police and how to respond. And more broadly, just how to engage with white society, white people, period. But my question is always, Do white people have a talk with their children about race and race relations and how to move and engage with other people? Should white people right now be right parents be talking to their kids about race and white privilege? And what should that sound like?

TIM WISE: Well, the first part of the question, the answer, sadly, is no. Most white folks dont have that talk with their children. I know that for me, of course, that was never going to be an option for my children. I didnt want to hit them over the head with it all the time, because I do think one of the things that helped me was not just a parent that talked, but a parent that acted. And sometimes the actions are more important than the words

So the talks are important and we should certainly have them. And there were resources out there for white folks who want to figure out how to talk to their kids. Theres a great book called Raising White Kids that talks about how to have this conversation with white children in a way thats really meaningful. But, but we must do it. And in our home, you know, I remember those talks. I started having those talks with my children when they were really young.

CHANGE

TRYMAINE LEE: In this moment were in right now. Do you think George Floyd protest included or not, that white America wants the change that black folks are calling for?

TIM WISE: Are there enough white folks that are prepared to join in solidarity with peoples of color, particularly with black folks, to push for a different way of living? And are there enough white folks that are prepared to find a different way of living in the skin that were in and fighting for pluralism and multiracial democracy? I happen to believe that thats possible, but I have to also remain agnostic about it because I havent ever seen it.

CREDIT: INTO AMERICA // NBC NEWShttps://www.nbcnews.com/intoamerica

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