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TULSA Donald Trump, former president of the United States and golf nut, said in a phone interview on Wednesday night that he will not be watching the 104th PGA Championship, which began here on Thursday at the historic Southern Hills Country Club, site of seven previous major championships.

I wont be watching it, no, Trump told me in a phone interview. I will not watch it. The only thing I like about it is that I love Oklahoma where, as you pointed out brilliantly, I have won 77 outta 77 counties. But I will not be watching it. No.

Trump was referring to a long piece I wrote, which originally appeared on FirePitCollective.com on Monday, that seeks to explain why the PGA of America moved this years tournament from Trump Bedminster to Southern Hills in the wake of the Jan. 6 lethal violence at the U.S. Capitol and the threat to American democracy and ideals it represented.

Throughout the interview, which came with no advance notice, Trump sounded relaxed and upbeat and much as he did before he entered politics. I had not talked to him in about seven years. Prior to that, I had interviewed him often over a 15-year period as he went on a golf-course buying spree. On Wednesday he said something that he has said many times before: I only do great. Im very good at property.

Trump watches a lot of golf on TV but his decision not to watch this years PGA Championship is an informal act of protest. For more than six years, Trump looked forward to being the host this week. The 2022 PGA Championship would have been the first time any of his 25 or so courses had been used for one of the four major mens events. Anybody who knows Trump as a golf entrepreneur knows the intense wooing he has done in an attempt to achieve that goal. He was finally rewarded on April 30, 2014, when the PGA of America announced that Trumps course in Bedminster, N.J., would be the venue for the 2022 PGA Championship. He had his major, the first of many, he hoped. Even after Trumps defeat in the 2020 presidential election, the PGA was something he eagerly anticipated.

And then came the Jan. 6 Capitol riots. To say they impacted the professional golf schedule is beyond trite but they did. Trump said he heard about the PGAs decision from his son Eric, who runs the golf business of the Trump Organization. My son, whos a great guy, called, Trump said. My son said, Dad, theyre canceling the PGA Championship [at Trump Bedminster]. I said, Thats terrible. Really? Are you serious? He said, Yeah, theyre canceling it. Can you believe it? I said, Not really. Let me think about that. Thats something.

(Some of Trumps comments have been lightly edited for clarity. Clean it up a little bit because sometimes when Im discussing things with a reporter, I speak differently than if Im making a speech. Then I speak perfectly, Trump said.)

And then I had to get back to work and China and all this stuff, Russia, the country. But its a hell of a thing when you hear that.

I wouldve loved to have done it and because I have the right place, I have the right location, the Tom Fazio course he feels it was one of his best jobs hes ever done. Its essentially right outside the Lincoln Tunnel, 20 minutes away. Its perfect and big. And I have the two courses there. We have parking for thousands of cars. It would have been phenomenal.

The Trump Bedminster property is in the New Jersey horse country on the former John DeLorean estate, and it is 20 minutes from the Lincoln Tunnel by helicopter. (Google Maps has it, in rare traffic-free conditions, as a 54-minute car ride from the Jersey side of the tunnel named for the 16th president.) Many people who have spent time with Trump, from long before he became a candidate for president, have known not to take much of what he says literally. To some degree, his hyperbole is his sense of humor. But nobody would doubt that the Bedminster property would have room to park thousands of cars.

Trump said that Trump Bedminster will now be the venue for a tournament in mid-July, the third event of a new golf league financed by the Saudis Public Investment Fund and called the LIV Golf series. It is run by Greg Norman. Trump, who was speaking from Mar-a-Lago, an estate and private club he owns in South Florida, said he expects to attend that July event.

They asked me, they said they wanted to use the course, Trump said, speaking of the LIV Golf executives. I made a deal with them. Theyre very good people. Theyre very fine people. Greg Normans been a total gentleman, you know, and hes wanted to do this for years and now he has the right backers because, you know, [the Saudi money] is unlimited. They can do the job right. I think when you put up first-place prize money for $6 or $7 million, I think a lot of people are gonna be showing up, to be honest with you.

The LIV Series will feature three-day, 54-hole events with team and individual components for 48 players. The event at Trump Bedminster will have a $25 million purse. The winner will receive $4 million, plus any money he may make in the team aspect of the competition. The series is open to male professionals and amateurs and only by invitation. Speculation has run rampant about who might be playing in the first event, in London in early June. The season finale, in mid-October, will be held at Trump Doral in Miami. The purse for that event is $50 million.

Yes, the numbers are dizzying, as they are meant to be. At this weeks PGA Championship, 156 players are in the field and the winner will receive $2.1 million.

I asked Trump if he thought the LIV Series would be viable for years to come. Heres the thing, he said. You could take a rich guy and start a tour and lose $100 million for a couple of years. Every rich guy I know, I dont care how rich, including me after a couple of years, will say, Well, thats enough of that stuff.

And you sort of saw that on the Nike Tour where youve had about 10 different sponsors over the years, because sponsors got tired of losing money. Right? But Saudi Arabia loves golf. The top guys there love golf. I know them very well and theyre very good people, the people that are involved. Five years ago they didnt know anything about golf. Theyre incredibly wanting to do this and theyre willing to spend, they have unlimited pockets, Michael. Unlimited pockets. Right?

Everybodys limited. Im limited. All the rich guys you and I know are limited. Were all limited, because we dont wanna lose $100 million a year for the rest of our lives. Right? But Saudi Arabia has unlimited pockets, and its good for the country and its good for everything.

In other words, yes. Trump is bullish on their chances.

Had the Jan. 6 protests been peaceful, I asked Trump, would the golf world including Tiger Woods and Scottie Scheffler but not Phil Mickelson, the defending champion who is not playing be gathered this week in Bedminster?

Ill tell you this, Trump said. If you took a poll inside the PGA, the 28,000 members of the PGA of America, Id be 97 percent, I believe. Id be way up there. And people are really angry at what the PGA did to me by taking that tournament away. And I had nothing to do with January 6th. Theyd be very angry at what they did.

I meaning my people told Nancy Pelosi on January 3rd that I think theres a big crowd coming. I think you should have 10,000 soldiers wrapped around the Capitol or in the Capitol. And she said, No, it wont be a good look.

And that was up to her because shes in charge of the security. So if you had had a thousand soldiers, Michael, you wouldnt have had January 6th. And shes the one that turned it down because shes in charge of security. I had nothing to do with January 6th, but [the PGA of America] used that.

It should be noted that representatives for Pelosi, the House speaker, have dismissed the claim that she rejected the suggestion for more security for Jan. 6. They also point out that House speakers do not have authority over Capitol Hill security.

I should also note, despite that lapse into politics, and there were others, that Trump spoke casually and happily for more than 40 minutes chiefly on a subject that is dear to him: golf, golfers and most especially golf, and golfers, on his courses. Trumps unscheduled call to me came in response to interview requests I had made while reporting the long Fire Pit Collective piece. I had just filled the tank on my Nissan Rogue rental car at a Phillips 66 station on Route 66 in Tulsa when my phone rang. NO CALLER ID, the screen read. I answered and it was the former president, calling directly.

The earlier story, entitled Trumped, seeks to explain how the 2022 PGA Championship landed at Trump Bedminster, when the organizations CEO was Pete Bevacqua and how it was moved from there by Bevacquas successor, Seth Waugh. Bevacqua was named CEO of the PGA of America in late 2012 and is now the chairman of the NBC Sports Group. Waugh is a former CEO of Deutsche Bank Americas.

In remarkable and personal detail and telling the story in the present tense, Trump described how Bevacqua went from the USGA to a talent agency before becoming, with Trumps help (per Trump) the PGA of Americas CEO. Trump knew Bevacqua when he worked for the USGA. So Pete is now an agent or something and I speak to him and I say, Pete, do you have any interest in heading the PGA of America? Trump said, telling the story with a certain glee and energy. He says, Uh, I would cut off my right arm for it. And then Pete gets hired for a fortune by NBC not my friends, NBC but Pete gets hired for an absolute fortune by NBC.

After Bevacquas move from the PGA of America to NBC Sports, in Trumps telling, the standing of Trump Golf with the PGA of America fell. Trump heaped praise on Bevacqua and was dismissive of Waugh. In the piece posted on Monday, Waugh said, Everybody wants to make this a political move, but we got put into a political place that was not of our own making. My feeling was we could do existential damage to our brand by staying at Bedminster.

Trump knows many PGA Tour players, including Jim Herman, Dustin Johnson, Bryson DeChambeau, Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson. Not one prominent active player has publicly stood with Trump on the PGA of Americas decision to move this years PGA Championship from Trump Bedminster. But Trump noted several times what Jack Nicklaus, whom Trump has hired for design work, said in the earlier piece.

I like Seth Waugh, Nicklaus said in that story. Seth didnt need this job. He took the job because he thought he could give the PGA of America some good guidance. And I think hes doing that. But this move is cancel culture. Donald Trump may be a lot of things, but he loves golf and he loves this country. Hes a student of the game and a formidable figure in the game. What he does in the future in golf will depend on what the cancel culture will allow him to do.

Ive been very good for golf, Trump said, after discussing the quote. Jack Nicklaus said it: Hes been great for golf.

I asked Trump about the settlement he reached with the PGA of America on a lawsuit over the moved tournament. Trump did not divulge the number.

It was fine, it was fine, he said. But money cant replace that. I dont need money and cant replace that. They did something so terrible. They took away a major from somebody thats done a great job for golf.

Years ago, when Trump had a course-construction contract with a construction company owned by Nicklaus, the two men were feuding. In that period, I told Trump how much I liked a public course in North Palm Beach, Fla., that Nicklaus designed on a pro-bono basis. Trump said (and this is from memory), I went to that course, that muni. I put on my disguise and bought a little ticket and walked around. That course is a piece of shit. You know nothing about golf. He was being funny, Im sure. I doubt he ever got past the parking lot, if he got that close. But the two men did not have a good relationship. In the years since, that has all changed.

In 2014, I was interviewing Nicklaus in his office in North Palm Beach about his life in golf. Near the end, Nicklaus said he had to wrap things up, because Trump and Kerry Haig, a PGA of America official, were waiting in another room to discuss possible sites for the PGA Championship, courses that would have both the Trump and Nicklaus stamps on them.

I asked Trump if he still thought he might get a mens major championship at one of his courses, including Trump Turnberry on the rugged West Coast of Scotland, where the British Open was played in 1977, 1986, 1994 and 2009.

I think its highly unlikely, he said.

We talked about the Turnberry course, where Tom Watson won the 77 Open, over Nicklaus, and lost the 09 Open, at age 59, in a playoff with Stewart Cink. Turnberry , you know its very interesting, Trump said. In Europe, Ive been given great credit for the job I did at Turnberry. I rebuilt greens, I moved the 9th hole out into the ocean. I moved the 11th hole and the 10th hole out into the ocean. You know, you had the ocean. I remember when Tom Watson say hello to him when you can; I love Tom Watson said, Why dont you move, I think he said, the 11th hole? You know, Tom Watson. He won five Opens, and I think he won five Senior Opens. Would you say he was a good links player?

Beyond good. Watson won five British Opens and three Senior British Opens, by the way. But I had to look it up. While speaking with Trump, I mentioned the name Bob Charles (great links golfer from New Zealand) when I meant Peter Thomson (far greater links golfer from Australia). Trump picked up on the mistake immediately. He knows a lot about golf and he is good at golf, although some of the scores he has reported over the years, and some of the club titles he claims, seem beyond unlikely.

I asked about the 2018 club championship at his West Palm Beach course. A story I wrote for Golf.com about the event ran under this comical headline: President Trump won a 2018 club championship without actually playing in it! After the event, a small gold plaque was put on his locker, under his name. There were six plaques in all, for events he won, the last one honoring the course owner as the 2018 mens club champion. The actual winner was a New York financier named Ted Virtue.

Teds a nice guy, Trump said. Well play golf with him. Hes a high-quality guy.

I asked Trump if he had challenged Virtue to a nine-hole match after Virtue had won the title.

I did, Trump said. I was not able to be down to Florida very much. So he won down in Florida. He played good and he won. Hes a good player. I said, So Ted, I heard you won. I met him on the 10th hole. I said, Im gonna challenge you now for the club championship. Which of course he wouldnt do, because the club championship is like a four-day deal. You have to win your different matches and all that stuff. I said, Ted, Im challenging you. He said, OK, Ill do it. Which is cute. And we did it. I did challenge him, but I did not accept [the title]. Youre not gonna see my name up there. Now I did win the senior club championship there two weeks ago. And Ive won the senior club championship in Bedminster too. So thats good.

I dont know precisely what Trump meant when he said you wouldnt see his name up there. Most likely his name in gold paint, on stained wood, on a clubhouse wall, as the 2018 senior champion. As noted, precision is not Trumps strength. That relates to his golf too. His driving game is far better than his chipping game. Most of his golf is casual and contested at match play, which is why the scores he claims should not be taken seriously, even though they do reveal something significant about him. Regardless, just in terms of his golfing skill and his devotion to golf, he is head and shoulders above any other golfing president, although JFK had a lovely, flowing patrician swing with little oomph. Trumps swing is an effective lunge in which he makes good use of his heft.

This is getting long! But thats because golf is a sweet spot for Trump. Im on 18 here.

I asked Trump if he expected Mickelson or DeChambeau or Johnson to play in any or all of the LIV events.

I dont know, Trump said. I know [the PGA Tour] is putting a lot of pressure on the players [not to play]. I dont think its legal. Itll end up going to court someday. And youre gonna find out whether or not the Tour has the Constitutional right to stop them, to preclude them from playing. I think theyd want to play. Phil got himself into a little trouble with his explanations. That could have been better handled, I guess. But Phils Phil. Why is he not playing? Whats the real reason hes not playing? Do you know?

I said I didnt but offered that maybe he was embarrassed by the remarks he made to my colleague Alan Shipnuck about the Saudi golf investors and the PGA Tour. I said maybe he was not ready to be with his peers and face reporters. He cant be embarrassed, not that bad, Trump said. Phil is, you know, a good guy, a great representative [for golf]. You know, with the smile and the whole deal. And Phil should be out playing in this championship. His manner, when he walks around with a smile, tipping the cap, the whole thing. You know?

I do. Everybody who follows the pro game does.

I asked Trump if he expected to see Mickelson in the Mickelson Villa at Trump Doral when the final event of the LIV inaugural season is played in October.

Well, hopefully, Trump said, laughing.

I mentioned Woods. Theres a villa at Trump Doral named for Tiger too.

I gave him the Presidential Medal of Freedom because of what hes been through, after he won that [2019] Masters, Trump said. That was incredible. And frankly, even when he played [at this years Masters], that was incredible.

Trump brought up something from the earlier story, that (in my opinion) he was never embraced by the upper-crust, elite Eastern Establishment golf people. I found your statement interesting, Trump said. You know, they treat me great. Like when I go out to National [Golf Links] or any of these places? You dont know anybody. Youve never heard of anybody. Youre meeting these people. Youve never heard of Worthington Smith the third or the fifth. Right? You dont know any of these people and its sort of strange because usually I know people, weve worked together or whatever. But they treat me great. And I do love Winged Foot.

Trump is a longtime member at Winged Foot, where DeChambeau won the 2020 U.S. Open. After his win, on that Sunday night, DeChambeau hung out with Eric Trump at the Trump course in Briarcliff Manor, N.Y. Eric once told me about the success he had been having with a TaylorMade driver given to him by Dustin Johnson.

It was interesting to hear Trump mention Winged Foot. He plays nearly all his golf at courses that bear his name, and golf conversation with him is usually about those courses as well. When I asked him when he had last played, I got another surprise. His most recent round had been last Saturday, at Dallas National. I played with Scottie Scheffler and I played with Tony Romo, Trump said, along with two others from the club. And you might ask them about the round if you want, if youre with Scottie. I love Scottie. We had a great time. Tony Romo hes a very good player, And Scottie Scheffler? I mean, man, hes very good.

I asked Trump how he played.

I played good, he said. I mean, youd have to ask them. But if you asked them, I think theyd say very good. I had a lot of people watching that first tee shot, getting that ball off the tee. We had a lot of people, and it was good.

Regarding Scheffler, Trump said, Hes favored to win this week, right?

You had the feeling that Donald Trump, former President and golf nut, might sneak just a peek at the golf from Southern Hills this week.

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Donald Trump speaks out on Phil, Jack, Saudi Arabia and the PGA that got away - GolfDigest.com