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Although cancel culture has been making headlines for years, some people still struggle to define it, and others insist that it doesnt exist. For them, Evan Nierman is here to help.

The founder and CEO of a company that helps individuals and businesses weather crises, Nierman became interested in cancel culture several years ago after helping several clients withstand cancellation, which he compared to a modern-day witch hunt. The subject became a passion project for him, and now, with Mark Sachs, Nierman has written what he hopes will be the definitive book, The Cancel Culture Curse: From Rage to Redemption in a World Gone Mad.

Cancel culture is real, Nierman says, and targets people on both of sides of Americas ideological divide. Theres a misconception that its mainly conservatives decrying cancel culture, and hes experienced that when talking about the book. People have wrongly assumed that hes approaching the subject from the right, when in fact, hes politically independent and not motivated by partisanship but by his concern about what cancel culture is doing to our country particularly to ordinary Americans who dont have the ability to fight back like politicians and celebrities do.

And trying to end cancel culture is definitely not part of his business, given that his company, Red Banyan, gets new clients when an internet mob sets out to destroy a business or an individuals life.

Nierman, a father of two who lives in Florida, spoke with the Deseret News recently about the least cancellable person on the planet and what has to happen for cancel culture to end. He also talked about what he sees as the most interesting attempt at cancellation happening right now and how it differs from other cases in the past.

The conversation has been edited for clarity and length.

Deseret News: Although people have been writing about cancel culture for years, it seems theres not one definition accepted by everyone. What went into coming up with your definition, which is The use of intimidation by a morally absolute coalition to isolate and disproportionately punish an alleged transgressor?

Evan Nierman: Before you can defeat it, you first have to define it. Ive been reading about cancel culture for years without ever seeing a clear articulation of what it was. So much of what was happening felt like political witch hunts ... people turning on each other with little evidence, or no evidence, and enacting mob justice. So we identified six core elements of cancel culture, which enabled us to come up with a definition we thought captured it.

The elements are in the acronym CANDEM: Crime committed against a collective; arises and accelerates quickly; nature of the offense is trivial or fabricated; disproportionate response; everyone afraid to get involved; and moral absolutism by those doing the canceling.

DN: You talk in the book about how people behave differently online than they do in real life. The ability to be anonymous has something to do with this, but are there other factors involved?

EN: You can do things online that you would never endeavor to do in real life since you can hide behind a pseudonym. But also so much of our online activity has to do with attracting attention. We see the research showing that people are seeking approval and validation based on how many likes or views their content gets. If they post something and it only gets a handful of likes, their (sense of) self-worth plummets. That dynamic leads people to say outrageous things as a way of getting attention, or to weigh in on a hot topic of the day. Many times they jump into that trendingstory and theres a villain in that story whether they deserve to be a villain or not. Then you end up with an internet pile-on by these cancel vultures. Not only do they not really care about the person who is attacked, but in the next couple of days, they fly off to their next outrage.

DN: Some people say that cancel culture is simply accountability. How does it differ from justice?

EN: Social media is the great equalizer. For the first time in our lives, a Hollywood A-list celebrity, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist and an unemployed guy who lives in his moms basement all can use the same communications tools and reach a global audience. And so you have people who have may have never been empowered in their lives, and all of a sudden, theyre able to weigh in on all sorts of topics, to have opinions and feel powerful. And for a lot of people who participate in cancel culture, they tell themselves what theyre doing is OK because its in the greater good of society. Some truly do feel that they are campaigning for justice, but what they dont understand is that theyre not allowing due process to play out, and they dont have the information they need in order to make a rational decision.

DN: Can you talk about how Gen Z entering college in 2013 played into the development of cancel culture? How much blame does this generation bear?

EN: Its not about assigning blame, but in the book, weve identified the perfect storm of elements that came together to create cancel culture. Gen Z going to college marks a pivotal moment related the upbringing that they had. College campuses have become echo chambers and are not driving debate but indoctrinating students, reducing their exposure to multiple viewpoints. Combine that with the 24-7 news cycle, instant access to the internet, ability to access a global community, people seeking attention, that generation wanting to feel empowered and wanting to take an active role in pursuing social justice you take all these elements and throw them into one big cauldron and it cooks up cancel culture.

DN: You say in the book that former President Donald Trump is the least cancellable person on the planet. But you also say politicians as a group have a way to fend off these attacks in a way that ordinary people dont. Is there anything ordinary Americans can learn from Donald Trump, or this protected class in general? Is there a playbook we can get from them?

EN: Donald Trump has his own entirely different set of rules that hes allowed to play by. Thats not a partisan statement its not an endorsement or a condemnation its an observation of fact. Other people who have been subjected to all of the scrutiny that he has, and have been embroiled in even a fraction of the controversy, their professional careers would have been over decades before. But for whatever reason, theres something so unique about Donald Trump and his irreverence and utter lack of shame that makes him his own creature entirely. It would be a mistake for other people to try to model themselves on Donald Trump. Some have tried and failed.

For the average person (threatened with cancellation), their family and friends are scared to defend them, because theyll attract the cancel vultures to themselves. With politicians, though, theyve got a built-in tribe, a network of people who will defend them to the hilt. They have a built-in defense system; its very hard to cancel politicians, but I do tell the story of (former Minnesota Sen.) Al Franken, which was a fascinating case study. Al Franken was canceled. But the reason Al Franken had to resign was because his own tribe turned on him. If the Democrats hadnt canceled Al Franken, hed probably still be in the Senate today.

DN: Included in the advice you give in the book is Refuse to be canceled. How can a person refuse to be canceled? Did Al Franken refuse to be canceled?

EN: In the case of Franken, no. He has been quoted as saying he should have fought it harder. And some of his colleagues have rued the fact that they were so quick to cancel him. Franken went into seclusion when he was canceled. With other people, who refused to be canceled, they find other avenues to be in public view and pursue other opportunities.

Look at Peter Boghossian. He was a professor who got canceled, and now theres a whole critical mass of people who hold him up as a hero and celebrate him; he has more influence today, more people who pay attention to his philosophy and what he thinks, than if hed never become a public figure, and he became a public figure when he was canceled. Look at Bari Weiss. At The New York Times, she was a very impressive journalist, but she was one of a whole stable of journalists. Now she has much more control over her career, and shes involved in so many initiatives and shes not hamstrung by the constraints that exist in working for The New York Times. Shes gone on to flourish and have an exponentially larger impact on society.

DN: In the book, you say that todays parents have the power to end cancel culture by what they are teaching their children. Can you elaborate on that?

EN: Not all cyberbullying is cancel culture. But all cancel culture is a form of bullying. If parents speak with their children about cancel culture, they can perhaps help them not be canceled in the future. But I also want them to talk to their children so they can stop them from participating as future cancel vultures. If parents help their kids understand the human impact behind their actions, they can help, and it really does come back to the golden rule, treating others how you would want to be treated.

As parents, we have to teach our kids the difference between accountability and cancellation. Our society has always had mechanisms for dealing with bad behavior. Some of that is in the legal arena; there are also mechanisms built into our workplaces. Thats why we have human resources professionals and most organizations have codes of conduct and processes in place to address things.

Also, and I think our children understand this, every child makes mistakes. Every person makes mistakes. So when were teaching our kids, we need to remind them of this. The problem with cancel culture is, no one is ever allowed to make a mistake and your punishment is permanent.

DN: Whats the most interesting thing going on in cancel culture today?

EN: The Bud Light controversy is fascinating. It didnt start as cancel culture; it started as a boycott. Boycotts have existed forever. Sanctions are boycotts. But what happens with a boycott? Youre trying to effect a policy change using economic means. And when that policy change happens, the boycott ends. But cancel culture isnt necessarily abouta policy change; its about vengeance. Even if you apologize, it doesnt matter, youre still canceled, youre permanently deplatformed.

And in the caseof Bud Light,it morphed into cancel culture. It became less about whether Bud Light believed one thing, and it became, lets rally together and drive a stake into their heart and use it as a way to put other companies on notice that if you cross us, were coming for you next. It was meant to have a chilling effect. Theres a rallying cry on the right now: Go woke, go broke. But there are people on the left who say cancel culture doesnt exist; its a figment of our imagination. But all you have to do is read the first chapter of the book, about Lisa Alexander (a San Francisco woman who confronted a man stenciling Black Lives Matter on the front of his house), to know that it is very real and very dangerous.

DN: Id like to give you a few names and you tell me if their cases were cancel culture, as alleged. Lets start with J.K. Rowling. Has she been canceled?

EN: They tried, but they failed.

DN: Scott Adams, the Dilbert creator?

EN: He was canceled, yes.

DN: Joe Rogan?

EN: Absolutely not, theyve tried to cancel Joe Rogan, and they cant. Hes too big to cancel, and he refuses to be canceled. And hes done a really good job, when he was forced to apologize, he gave an apology from a position of strength, but hes still at the top of his game. Not canceled.

DN: Will Smith?

EN: He suffered consequences of his actions (punching Chris Rock at the Oscars), but he committed assault on live, international TV. That is not cancel culture. He committed a crime against a person, and I dont think it was a disproportionate response.

DN: Ye, or Kanye West?

EN: He canceled himself. It was a self-immolation, Kanye West.

DN: Any parting words?

EN: I was not afraid to write this book; I didnt think that I would be canceled for it. But I have been surprised about misperceptions that have been circulating about me. There have been numerous media outlets that have declined to talk about my book or have me on because they falsely presume Im a hard-right political figure. Im an independent. Ive supported Democrats; Ive voted for Republicans. Im the perfect example of a swing voter. Im not a devotee to any political party.

But just the title of the book describing cancel culture as a curse has led people to prejudge me and make false assumptions about me. I find that surprising, and disappointing. This underscores how important it is to get this book and its messages out in the world.

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Cancel culture: Were Donald Trump and Bud Light canceled? - Deseret News