Foto:    LATINNO.  
    Francesc Badia: Thank you, Thamy, for having    us. Let's start with the idea behind the LATINNO Project.  
    Thamy Pogrebinschi: The idea behind the    LATINNO Project is to call attention to the vast    experimentation that has been happening in Latin America over    the last two decades. There is a lot of talk about democratic    innovation and participatory government in Latin America, and    the only example is always the participatory budget in Porto    Alegre. Perhaps one or two more participatory processes have    been studied recently, but still after so many years it is    always the participatory budgeting in Brazil the main example    of participatory governance. With the LATINNO Project I want to    show that there is much more going on in Latin America, not    only the participatory budget and not only Brazil or Porto    Alegre. So, the idea was providing such information, providing    data on different innovations that exist across eighteen    countries in Latin America. My decision to collect this data    and open it immediately seeks to allow more research on all    those innovations and on all those countries. It has also a    practical aim, which is enabling policy makers, civil society    organizations, governments and international organizations    alike to get information on what exists and to compare what    works and what does not work, and see how things can work in    different ways and how democracy has been experimented in    different contexts and different settings. In sum, the idea    behind LATINNO was to build this dataset which will be online    and accessible to all, but also to provide understanding and    knowledge about this vast experimentation with innovative ways    of doing politics. Thats why LATINNO is not only the dataset,    it is not only about mapping innovations. It is a research    project, mainly. Besides the dataset we have other outcomes,    like the first democratic innovations index and our own    publications containing our findings.  
    Francesc: There are three concepts at LATINNO    that you may want to go through. The first one is democratic    innovations, and how you define democratic innovation, what you    see as really innovative. The second concept is how the quality    of democracy is measured, and how do you categorize it: voting,    participating, the deliberation processes, the level of    representation? And the third concept has to do with the    pragmatic approach through which this research has been    developed, especially when defining what's political    experimentation, and how it is characteristic of democracy in    Latin America. Let's start with the first concept, democratic    innovation. How do you understand it?  
    Thamy: I would say I have a concept of    democratic innovations which is broader than the one used in    the academia, but more specific than the one used by    practitioners and activists. In academic debates, democratic    innovations are usually defined as being new institutional    designs that aim at expanding citizen participation in    political decision-making. What is at stake in this definition    is having more citizens participating, namely expanding the    number of citizens involved in decision making. I see two    limitations here, one is the underlying assumption that just by    increasing the number of citizens engaged democracy will be    improved. The second is that such engagement should necessarily    take place at the decision-making level. On the theoretical    level I think it is complicated to think on participation as an    end in itself, assuming that participation per se    improves democracy; and on the empirical level the actual    experiments do involve citizens in other stages of the policy    process, not only decision making, and they are still    innovative and democratic. Based on this theoretical    consideration and empirical observation, I define democratic    innovations as institutions and practices whose end is    enhancing at least one of the dimensions of the quality of    democracy by means of citizen participation in at    least one of the stages of the policy process. So, in my    conceptualization, which has oriented how cases in the LATINNO    project has been searched, citizen participation is not an end    in itself; it is a means to achieve a larger end, an    improvement in democracy, in one of the dimensions of what we    call the quality of democracy. Those means of participation are    diverse, they may involve deliberation, e-participation, direct    voting, and forms of citizen representation. Of course, citizen    participation is also something that improves democracy,    especially if citizen participation involves political    inclusion, namely the participation of those who are    underrepresented. Thats why I take political inclusion as one    of the ends citizen participation in democratic innovations can    achieve, among others. So, an innovation is not democratic    simply because it allows citizens to participate or because it    expands the number of citizens that participate. It is    democratic because it is a means of participation, a tool    through which citizens themselves can do something for    democracy. And this can be done not only at the decision-making    stage. Citizens can provide inputs to policy makers and set the    policy agenda, they can participate in the formulation of the    policy, they can have a role in the very implementation of    policies, and they can also evaluate, that is monitor policies    that have already been decided and implemented. This is how I    broaden the concept, by considering all stages of the policy    process as being relevant for citizen participation and not    only decision-making. If one only looks for processes where    citizens take decisions, we miss a lot of what is going on in    terms of democratic experimentation. Political decisions have    been taken differently by decision-makers because citizens set    agendas or monitor policies, thats the change one must look at    to understand how participation is something that outgrows    representation without exactly competing with it.  
    Francesc: Absolutely. The second concept we    can discuss is what you define as quality of democracy, or    democratic quality, which is multidimensional. Democracy it is    not only about voting, but also about participating, including    the deliberation process, key to the quality of democracy.    Here, we should also talk about representation, and how, within    the limits of representation, some processes may trigger    innovation overcoming the existing gap between those in power    and the citizenship. It is also important to discuss the limits    of representation.  
    Thamy: I see the concept of quality of    democracy also somehow in a broader way than that which is used    by the scholarship and the indices that measure the quality of    democracy. But I also try to frame this concept vis--vis    democratic innovations, using an analytical framework that    enables them to be assessed and which will hopefully contribute    to the measurement of the quality of democracy, because those    thousands of new institutional designs do matter for democracy    and must be considered in such measurements. I do identify five    dimensions of quality of democracy that can be activated by    innovations, that is, through citizen participation:    accountability, responsiveness, rule of law, political    inclusion and social equality. Citizens can enhance the quality    of democracy by participating in these new spaces, mechanisms,    practices in such ways as to bring about more social equality,    or more political inclusion, or both. When citizens get    together, discuss and voice their demands, when they identify    problems in their cities and report them in apps, when they    make policy recommendations online or offline, they may    increase responsiveness or accountability, because innovations    increase the chances that the government hears those demands,    it gives governments more opportunities beyond elections to    know what citizens expect. At the LATINNO Project we look at    how innovations are designed to impact on one or more of these    five the dimensions of the quality of democracy. We also look    at the different means of participation that can activate those    five dimensions, or democratic qualities, and expect that    different combinations of means and ends may improve democracy.  
    Francesc: Now, let's talk about the limits of    representation.  
    Thamy: There is a lot of discussion on    how representation is in crisis, how democracy is in crisis,    but to call it crisis reveals our inability to see that    actually democracy has changed. We do have to accept that and    move on, understand that maybe democracy doesnt mean anymore    what it meant once. The institutions that lead us to think of    democracy as being representative are still there and might be    still there for a long long time. We cannot get rid of    parliaments, the judicial power, and the executive power, they    may never be substituted for innovations, but innovations    change the way they work. Many innovations started to be    developed within representative institutions or as a devolution    of power from them, but also and especially, they surround them    and have an impact on them as they allow citizens to set their    agendas, provide inputs for policies, change the way they take    decisions and implement those decisions. It is important that    we look at those changes, those institutional changes. And    thats our aim at the LATINNO Project, we built this database    to call attention to those new democratic forms and practices,    those experimentations with democracy, those changes in olds    institutions. Our database comprises 2,400 different    institutional designs in eighteen countries. Those are all    cases where citizens participate in one of the stages of the    policy process aiming at improving democracy, that is, aiming    at enhancing accountability, or responsiveness, or political    inclusion, or social equality, or the rule of law. Those new    institutional designs, or changes on how old institutions work,    this is what makes processes of citizen participation    innovations. And all this go beyond representation even if it    takes place within representative democracy and within    representative institutions. We might not be able to see this    change now, and thats why there is so much talk about the    crisis of representation instead of talk about the changes of    representation and of democracy itself. Were experiencing    something in recent years that we may only recognize and be    able to name in the future. There is a heritage of recent    governments in Latin America, especially those associated with    the left turn, that has to do with a new way of doing politics    through participation, new ways of setting priorities, taking    decisions, implementing and evaluating them. So participation    is not the opposite of representation, it is something that    changes representation from the inside. It is not a surprise    that, as the LATINNO data shows, about one third of democratic    innovations in Latin America involve a form of citizen    representation. Citizen representing citizens, talking in the    name of others, but also doing for others, sometimes    with other citizens, sometimes together with the government,    this is a trend, it is a change in the very concept of    representation, something that show how it is expanded through    participation instead of competing or conflicting with it.  
    Francesc: My last point is    about experimentation. The Project often mentions how    experimentation is a characteristic of Latin American    democracies. Yet, what is specifically characteristic of this    experimentation? What are the conditions that trigger    experimentation, and why is Latin America more experimental    than other political spaces? What are your findings?  
    Thamy: First Ill start with why Latin America    is more experimental. Latin America has newer, younger    democracies. The age of institutions makes them more flexible    somehow, they can adapt better to new circumstances. Underlying    that that there are some conditions in Latin America that seem    to favor this political experimentation, like the    re-democratization, which has re-empowered citizens and civil    society organizations through their fight against    authoritarianism. With the democratization process comes the    constitutionalization process. New constitutions are written    and they protect against authoritarianism by guaranteeing    citizen participation. This is the case of Brazil, for example.    In addition to that, regardless of authoritarian background    there are countries that have enacted lots of new legislation    that favor citizen participation and institutionalize new    institutional designs. Several laws in different countries in    the region try to include citizens in the political process and    mandate new institutions or institutional changes to accomplish    that. Colombia is one of these countries. A third general    condition is decentralization. Virtually all Latin American    countries have undergone decentralization processes. So, they    have devolved power to the municipalities, and empowered the    local level, where several innovations have been tried out. New    political parties, or opposition parties that were shadowed    during authoritarian periods that started to do politics in a    different way, first at the local level, later at the national    level, especially after the left turn and the turn of the    century. However, more important than being left or right,    center left or center right, the LATINNO data shows that    regardless of ideological orientation, political parties do    have a role in changing democracy through innovations when they    are in the government. Finally, another condition is the    cultural and ethnical diversity of Latin America. There are,    for example, traditions of deliberation that came from civil    society as it opposed authoritarianism, and also from    indigenous communities, and these practices were incorporated    into new institutions. So, historically those would be the    conditions. But then practically, empirically, what we see are    several attempts to trying to do democracy through different    means. We have these different means of doing policy, through    deliberation, citizen participation, e-participation, direct    voting, and we combine all of that in different ways depending    on the problems that we have to address, the ends we want to    achieve. This is democratic experimentation.  
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