One man who has studied these questions in great depth is Roman    David, a Czech sociologist and expert on transitional justice    based in Hong Kong. Indeed Mr. David, who was himself a    21-year-old student in 1989, carried out sociological surveys    of both ex-political prisoners and former party members and    collaborators for his book Communists and Their Victims: The    Quest for Justice in the Czech Republic.  
    When I spoke to him by Zoom, I first asked Roman David    what had led him to research and write the book in the first    place.  
      Roman      David|Photo: Department of Sociology      and Social Policy, Lingnan University    
    I had a very interesting inspiration during my doctorate in    Brno, where I studied with Professor [Vladimr] ermk, who was    a political philosopher and justice of the Constitutional    Court.  
    We had a lot of debates about justice, and I came to the    conclusion that to solve the problem of dealing with the past    we cant rely on lawyers, because there is no uniform opinion    among lawyers.  
    Law in books is just an illusion, and one lawyer can have a    perfectly legitimate opinion and another lawyer can have a    perfectly legitimate dissenting opinion.  
    This realization motivated me to look beyond. I wrote an    article for a newspaper which was entitled Two ways of    persecuting the crimes of communism.  
    I outlined two paths that could lead to the prosecution. One    was the Czech Republics path through the Act on the    Illegitimacy of the Communist Regime, and another was a path    advocated by my supervisor, Professor ermk.  
    Following the publication the leadership of the Confederation    of Political Prisoners contacted Professor ermk and asked    what he could do with this issue of prosecution.  
    As a judge he couldnt do anything, but what he did was to    call me and said, We need to help these people, somehow.  
    Then I came to realise that in order to study justice, I need    to really ask people what they think about justice, what does    justice mean to them  and especially to ask the victims of    human rights violations.  
    In your book you say something that for me is so    interesting. You say that Czechia was a leader in dealing    with the past in post-communist Europe. What did the Czechs get    right in that regard, do you think?  
      Photo: University      of Pennsylvania Press    
    Well, I said we were leaders in terms of outcomes. But we need    to see that there were historical conditions for the process of    dealing with the past.  
    Since the Battle of White Mountain, 1918 and the establishment    of Czechoslovakia and 1945, dealing with Nazism, we already had    some sort of blueprint for dealing with the past.  
    We know that the new regime deals with the previous regime,    that the perpetrators or the protagonists of one regime are    damned in the following regime.  
    There was a whole conceptual apparatus available: words such    as restitution, rehabilitation, or denazification at that time.    These words were already available in our vocabulary, so that    gave us a certain head start.  
    And what made us leaders is that in 1990, or already in 1989    actually, the first laws were passed in Parliament which    started to dismantle the Communist regime.  
    They included the Confiscation of Communist Property Act, the    Rehabilitation of Political Prisoners Act, the Restitution Act    and the Act on the Illegitimacy of the Communist Regime.  
      Monument of Battle of White      Mountain (November 8, 1620)|Photo: tpnka Budkov, Radio      Prague International    
    So these acts were fundamental for laying the groundwork. And    they were so thorough that they allowed us to progress in    comparison to other countries in post-Communist Europe on a    massive scale.  
    They essentially sidelined the judiciary from this process.    The judiciary played second fiddle. The most important thing    was that the decisions were done on the basis of law, rather    than by judicial decision.  
    If we look at the justice system at that time, in the    early 90s, what were the mistakes made in the transition from    communism to democracy?  
    I would need to go the previous question, when you mention    what made us leaders. Let me tell you that the process of    dealing with the past requires more than legal measures: It    requires the involvement of society.  
    For political prisoners rehabilitation, one of the very    important factors is their social acknowledgement.  
    So for example political prisoners, for their rehabilitation,    one of the very important factors is their social    acknowledgement. Another important factor is their reception in    their neighbourhoods. And there are many other factors which    affect the well-being of political prisoners.  
    Now these factors were pursued informally in the Czech    Republic. They were not really supported by the state. But,    thanks to the history of the Czech lands, we had the    understanding that these are important things to do, so society    was dealing with them.  
      Illustrative      photo: Fifaliana Joy, Pixabay, Pixabay    
    But what is a mistake here, or what is the weakness, is that    these social measures of justice were not pursued more    systematically.  
    Another issue was that a whole alternative way of dealing with    the past was completely absent.  
    When you speak about the rehabilitation of people who    were imprisoned, say, before 1989, was that carried out well?    Were the victims satisfied with how they were rehabilitated,    could you say?  
    It was about half and half. Some of them reported a solid    level of rehabilitation. Some of them a lower level of    rehabilitation.  
    The major measures which were approved legally, for example    the financial compensation, and the possibility of returning to    their former professions, if they were of an age to, were the    most important factors in their rehabilitation process.  
    But then there were a whole range of factors which were not    accentuated, because they were not known in the Czech lands.    They were factors which were related to alternatives to    justice, inspired by the whole process of justice, in a    comparative perspective, in countries like South Africa.  
    And those played a critical role for the rehabilitation of    political prisoners.  
    So when I studied those processes I also included questions    about the meaning of truth and truth sharing  how important    that is for former political prisoners.  
    There was no formal forum to establish and deal with the    past.  
    I found that if they shared their stories privately, with    family members for example, they reported a higher    rehabilitation score.  
    But if they shared their stories publicly the score was    negative. That was usually because there was no formal forum to    establish and deal with the past.  
    As a result, truth sharing was done by, lets say,    journalists, or by invitations to speak to students at schools.    And these are not the best forums for opening up.  
    Because they require a certain patience, for example when they    are dealing with students. But they also require a certain    tolerance when dealing with journalists, because journalists    need to do their jobs, they need to edit.  
    And for many former political prisoners, when they have been    interviewed they felt that very important parts of their lives    were cut, because there are simply always some limitations. But    then for them it was not really a positive experience.  
      Illustrative      photo: Post Bellum    
    One thing Id also like to ask you about is    restitution. You say that restitution didnt really deliver for    foreign Czechs, Czechs who had left the country, in most    cases to escape from communism.  
    This is a shame. I think this is very unfair treatment of    Czech people. Simply some people could not take the risk to    return to a transitioning country by giving up the citizenship    that they had earned, for example, in the US or many other    countries which did not necessarily allow dual citizenship. So    they were in a very difficult legal position.  
      Photo: Czech      Television    
    But what is more problematic is how the Czech government    handled it. Why this was handled this way, Im really not sure.  
    But the outcome is that essentially nationalistic    considerations made sure that Communist-era injustices remained    unrectified.  
    What about lustration, or screening. This was a system    that was brought in by law in 1990 or 1991, under which people    who had had high positions in the Communist Party were barred    from important posts in the new democratic system. Was that    useful, or effective, as a form of bringing about change for    the better?  
    There were informal processes that were already conducted    before the lustration law.  
    Its a question, to what extent it was useful. There were    informal processes that were already conducted before the    lustration law was approved. So that somehow diminished the    impact of the law.  
    What were these processes? Were they the lists of    collaborators?  
    No, they were something that was called a vote of    no-confidence in the leadership. This was pursued in all state    institutions, schools  so already in 1989, 1990 there were    changes in personnel.  
      Cibulka's lists of secret      police collaborators    
    That was very important to do, and the lustration law was also    brought in to, among other things, legalise these kinds of    changes, in terms of saying which changes are allowed, and    which changes are not  so to put some legal regulations into    it, and to prescribe who can and cannot hold certain positions.  
    This was simply because there was a certain rotation: people    were dismissed in one place and then became a director in    another place, or another school, and things like that.  
    But what is important here is to see there are different    lustration models. For example the Czech lustration model is    exclusive in its nature and is based on dismissals.  
    In Hungary they approved a model which is more inclusive. It    was based on the revelation of background information about an    individual who wanted to retain his position in government.  
    There are different lustration models. The Czech model is    exclusive in its nature and is based on dismissals.  
    In Poland they approved another model of a kind of an    inclusive, or kind of reconciliatory, system in which  similar    to in South Africa  the position of a person who wanted to    hold office was exchanged for true revelation about his past.    So the person needed to make a disclosure, and upon full    disclosure he or she was granted a second chance and could hold    office in the new system.  
    In my previous book, I wrote about these systems and I    compared their utility. I found out that the Czech system is    the best in establishing trust in government, simply because a    government without tainted officials is better than a    government with tainted officials. That makes perfect sense.  
      Illustrative      photo: Office of Czech Government    
    But what is interesting is that reconciliatory system, the    Polish system based on confession, was also effective. Although    here it has to be said that it was three times less effective    than the Czech system.  
    In comparison to the contribution to reconciliation, or to    some kind of overcoming the divisions of the past, the Czech    system had no effects. The Hungarian system also had no    effects, either positive or negative.  
    But the Polish system had a positive effect. So the people who    were confessing their wrongdoing essentially had a positive    relationship, or positive standing, in society, in comparison    to those secret collaborators who were just disclosed, without    anything else.  
    About secret collaborators, you write in the book also    about coercion, that people were very often forced into being    collaborators. Does the fact that coercion was so often used    mean that its just not fair to point the finger at people who    appeared on lists of collaborators?  
    It depends on who compiles the list. So if this is some kind    of a wild list, compiled based on leakage of information, its    not fair.  
    But even assume that the list is correct. Imagine the    list is 100 percent correct. Is it fair to point the finger at    these people, and blame them, if they may have been forced, in    all kinds of ways, to collaborate?  
    Well, it is fair if a person wants to hold public office. I    think it is a requirement of holding a position of trust, that    people have information about a persons past.  
    Imagine that in a police station there are people who used to,    lets say, persecute dissidents  and they are continuing to    police the community. How would the community feel safe about    this?  
    So these types of situations need to be addressed. And I think    that transparency is very useful in this aspect.  
    For me one of the most fascinating points you make is    that retributive measures against pre-1989 Communists may in    fact have been a kind of block, or impediment, to those people    transforming themselves into, lets say, democrats.  
    Retributive measures inhibit the personal transformation    of ex-Communists and inhibit their ability to internalise human    rights.  
    Yes, this is one of the findings: that retributive measures    essentially inhibit the personal transformation of former    Communists and inhibit their ability to internalise human    rights. It can also inhibit generational transformation of    former Communists and their offspring.  
    One of the hypotheses that I was working with is that those    retributive measures created an inversion effect: They turned    society upside down, and those who were up were now down,    etcetera.  
    So thats partly true. We can say that those retributive    measures didnt help to reconcile or overcome those divisions.    In fact, they solidified those divisions. They created a    situation in which, lets say, a former Communist or a former    secret informer gained these type of fixed identities. And    there was no escape out of it.  
    So this is not really something that is useful for society. It    creates more divisions, or deepens the existing divisions,    rather than overcoming those divisions.  
    And its good that society is unified about fundamental    issues. We can see it, for example, related to the war in    Ukraine: We would be better equipped to face the Russian    aggression if we were unified, if we had, for example, the    former Communists on board.  
    Clearly now they are not that relevant, because they are out    of Parliament, but who knows  they may make it back in.  
    Even now, all these decades later, sometimes I hear    people, especially older people, saying that it was a mistake    in 1989 or 1990 not to ban the Communist Party. What do you say    to that assertion?  
    I think if we want to have a liberal society, we cannot really    use those instruments which are available to authoritarian    rulers too often.  
    I dont say exactly that there should not be possibilities of    banning illegal organisations, but I dont think the Communist    Party should have been banned.  
    Simply, it was important to cut it off from its resources,    from its property. This happened  the property was    confiscated. It was important to cut it off from influence on    the secret police; the secret police was dissolved.  
    So suddenly there was no longer a state party but instead a    political party, like any other, although still with    significant membership and significant resources. But    nevertheless it already posed less danger at that time than it    did in, say, 1989.  
    Many former Communist Party members have been involved    in Czech politics in the last 30-plus years, including recently    Andrej Babi, who was prime minister, Milo Zeman, who was    prime minister and later president, and the current president,    Petr Pavel. Could it be said that a lot of former Communists    have contributed, maybe even a lot, to Czechia over those    decades?  
      Andrej Babi in      1981|Photo: Czech Television    
    I look at results from my survey, which were not published,    because they were not significant but I tried to find out    whether movements like ANO or Freedom and Direct Democracy have    a significant number of former Communist Party members, or    their offspring.  
    And there is no such significant result. They do not have a    concentrated cohort of former Communist Party members. So this    is kind of at the kind of grass-roots level.  
    On the political level, we have the society that we have. We    cannot replace people. It takes whole generations to replace,    to phase out [laughs], the Communist regime.  
    So one could say that some people who were members of the    Communist Party were contributing to society.  
    I see the current president, Petr Pavel, who was a member, and    he also tried to face this issue openly, rather than running    away from it.  
    President Pavel is a decorated war hero, but its not a    bad thing that the issue of his former Communist Party    membership stays with him.  
    Hes a decorated war hero and hes also a skillful diplomat,    but its not a bad thing that this issue of his former    Communist Party membership stays with him; his steps can be    scrutinized, and I think that is only a good thing for    politics.  
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